11:40-12:00     Jason Howard     Finitude as the Lingua Cosmica of the Universe

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11:41:45 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : The classic Kantian interpretation is to treat all persons not as a means only but as an end also. Often we cannot avoid treating others as means; the important thing is to not treat them exclusively as means to some end. 

 

11:42:00 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : If you grind a microbe up and it cures cancer, that’s instrumental, not intrinsic value.  Just sayin…:)

 

11:42:17 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : This can be applied, mutatius mutandis, to the intrinsic value of the individual, or the living species.

 

11:42:17 From Robert.Kennedy to Everyone : policy went out the window too

 

11:42:22 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : Unless microbes are only intrinsically valuable in a ground up state. 

 

11:42:34 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : I really dislike any argument from intrinsic value. I consider them fundamentally anti-democratic. That's an argument that we'd barely have time to scratch in a Q&A.

 

11:43:19 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : On the contrary, arguments about intrinsic value *ought* to play a role in democratic deliberation.  You might find that far more people agree about the value of things, if the issue is framed properly.

 

11:43:59 From Carlos Santana to Everyone : Option value arguments (e.g. what if we find out if this cures cancer in the future?) in environmental ethics haven't been very successful. Estimates vary wildly on the option value of species, but all the estimates are shockingly low, from a few cents to a few thousand dollars per species.

 

11:43:59 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : "Intrinsic", rhetorically, means "I'm not going to try to explain myself" 

 

11:44:12 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : Right, Kelly: so it'd be a win win assuming we don't grind them all up!

 

11:45:18 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : Frequently policy is a moral (rule for action) compromise that arises from a group with diverse ethical (foundational principal) motivations. I think we're stuck with this. I get frustrated when we try to include an ethical statement without ethical consensus.

 

11:45:46 From Linda Billings to Everyone : Just a followup on Ted’s Q, “how can we justify ethics for public policy” - all of need to keep working on getting our voices heard in the public dialogue about policy issues.

 

11:45:50 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : Well, it's normally expected that we give arguments in support of intrinsic value claims.

 

11:45:59 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Eric - in practice, yes!

 

11:46:28 From Linda Billings to Everyone : @ Lucas good point.

 

11:46:59 From Robert.Kennedy to Everyone : I always thought the rule in Nature was: "do unto others, then split"

 

11:47:05 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : @ Jim, I think it depends on the document. I get really turned off by arguments that presume an ethical foundation with which I don't agree, so it can bite you rhetorically. Intrinsic value has become one of these issues.

 

11:47:06 From Andrew Kennedy to Everyone : ethics is the override button

 

11:47:20 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Do unto other before they do it unto you.

 

11:47:21 From Linda Billings to Everyone : Jason, ditto! Re: how much I get out of these meetings.

 

11:47:35 From Tomislav Janovic to Everyone : Good morning?? What kind of chronocentrism is this?

 

11:47:48 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Tomislav - LOL!

 

11:51:02 From Linda Billings to Everyone : I am so, so sorry, but I’ve been reminded that I am obligated to attend a NASA astrobiology meeting at noon ET - in 10 minutes. I love SSOCIA, love these meetings, find them so stimulating and enriching. I’ve so enjoyed engaging with old friends and making new friends. Everybody, keep up the good work, and see you next time!

 

11:51:28 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Goodbye Linda!

 

11:51:42 From Linda Billings to Everyone : And, PS, I will make sure that my NASA astrobiology team knows about all of your good work.

 

11:52:29 From Neil Manson to Everyone : :-)

 

11:54:35 From Linda Billings to Everyone : Never mind! My astrobiology meeting has been cancelled!

 

11:54:39 From Andrew Kennedy to Everyone : jason, great talk. seems true.

 

11:54:50 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Good job Jason! Welcome back Linda!

 

11:55:44 From Dan Capper to Everyone : Nice to have you back, Linda.

 

11:56:14 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : Bye Linda! Thanks for coming!

 

11:56:29 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : Oh wait, I just saw that, ha ha, welcome back!

 

11:57:17 From Robert.Kennedy to Everyone : the was a good story in Analog magazine decades ago about beings with extremely different lifespans, 3 orders of magnitude either way: "Petals of Rose" or something like that.  Ah here it is: https://faithandsciencefiction.blogspot.com/2020/01/slice-of-pie-humans-aliens-eden-choice.html

 

11:58:19 From Robert.Kennedy to Everyone : "In the Marc Stiegler story, “Petals of Rose” (ANALOG, November 9, 1981) the very-shortlived Rosans are commissioned by Humans to build translight communication. It’s not revealed until the end of the story that 

Humanity would have lost a bitter and contentious war if the translight communicator was not built. It’s also not revealed that while Rosans live a matter of days from a Human perspective, Lazarans live 25 millennia compared to Human’s hundred and fifty."

 

11:58:53 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : Wouldn’t AI also be aware of death? If only the heat death of the Universe.

 

11:58:56 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : Very cool, Robert

 

11:59:53 From Robert.Kennedy to Everyone : I also have a day job to deal with.  Hope to be back in time for the valedictions.  SSoCIA'20 has been such a delightful feast for the mind; helps coping with the pandemic for sure!

12:08:56 From Carlos Santana to Everyone : A lot of people think that their paradigmatic moral relationship is to an immortal deity. 12:09:12 From Daniela de Paulis to Everyone : Does a moral relation implies empathy?

 

12:10:10 From Pauli Laine to Everyone : Are animals moral?

 

12:10:12 From Tomislav Janovic to Everyone : Daniela@ Kant would certainly disagree.

 

12:10:38 From Daniela de Paulis to Everyone : I can imagine :-)

 

12:10:51 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : @Daniela four permutations: no empathy, empathy from others, empathy for others, empathy from and for others

 

12:11:06 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : such a cool talk:  I'm guessing it would be hard  for us to have meaningful  interactions with a species that lived maybe 2 days. There was a story in  analog about this many many years back.  Little angel-shaped beings who  lived a day I think and collected human memories. 

 

12:11:13 From Tomislav Janovic to Everyone : He wanted to leave space for acting morally even when lacking empathy.

 

12:11:34 From Carlos Santana to Everyone : Even if we take the parent-child relationship to be the paradigmatic moral relationship, different cultures take that in wildly different directions. Think about Confucian ethics, which keys in on filial piety, but deemphasizes reciprocity and so on compared to what Jason is suggesting.

 

12:11:39 From Andrew Kennedy to Everyone : moral behaviour built on one’s limitations

 

12:11:56 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : @Neil: I've thought for years that Tolkien's elves are endless teenagers. Thoughts of death do not enter their minds in the same way as mortals. 

 

12:12:10 From Neil Manson to Everyone : I was thinking of Tolkien's elves too!

 

12:13:57 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : If you don't die naturally, but could still be killed, wouldn't you get really risk averse?

 

12:14:11 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Good point

 

12:14:24 From Neil Manson to Everyone : That's what I was thinking Sheri!

 

12:14:26 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : They sort of play on this in the second LotR film when they show the dead elves

 

12:14:31 From Kathryn Denning to Everyone : @Sheri, it depends on what you think comes after death

 

12:14:35 From William Alba to Everyone : Love Sheri's question

 

12:14:44 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : having voluntarily participated in a battle

 

12:14:50 From Kathryn Denning to Everyone : and whether you think death is permanent

 

12:15:03 From Kathryn Denning to Everyone : which not everyone does

 

12:15:20 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : @sheri: discounting the future means little difference between immortality and high longevity. Possible death gets discounted close to zero 12:15:23 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Yes, Kathryn!

 

12:15:36 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Good point