12:10-12:30     Pauli Laine     Human Mars Exploration Vs. Planetary Protection

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Live Discussion

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12:13:40 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : Who enforces international property restrictions?

 

12:13:50 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : The United Federation of Planets, of course…

 

12:13:53 From Neil Manson to Everyone : There would be few practical limitations to create visible-from-earth geoglyphs on the moon, correct? It'd just be a matter of putting in the effort. But if it was  used for, say, commercial advertising, it might be worth doing for them.

 

12:14:00 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : @Lucas the ones with the biggest and best guns

 

12:14:04 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Oh lord, Zubrin!

 

12:14:50 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : At the current time, there's such thing as international property. All rights in property are subordinate to some sovereignty.

 

12:15:37 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : International property rights 

are based on the use of force

 

12:15:55 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Maritime law has long recognized the private ownership of mined materials from international waters.  Whether this is a good idea is another question, but there is no doubt it can work and there are clear precedents in law.

 

12:15:56 From William Alba to Everyone : Heinlein's story "The Man Who Sold the Moon" involved putting ads on the face of the Moon 12:16:22 From Neil Manson to Everyone : wow!

 

12:16:35 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : @ William - wait for my discussion on Thursday!

 

12:16:43 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : @William: Phil Lubin gave a talk at the 2019 Interstellar Workshop talking about how he could sell time on a laser array to project ads on the Moon :(

 

12:17:00 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : There is also an interesting legal precedent in the material of human bodies, which cannot be owned unless labor it put into working with them.

 

12:17:01 From Julia DeMarines to Everyone : yikes

 

12:17:07 From Neil Manson to Everyone : ugh

 

12:17:21 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : @Neil: The was a commercial proposal to a giant laser to paint advertising on the moon; this was some time in the 90's. I told the fellow who told me that "I would take up arms against that". He was aghast.

 

12:17:44 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Property rights due to one's investment of labor is classic Locke, and can be found in the second treatise of civil government 

 

12:18:41 From Neil Manson to Everyone : That'd be the astronomical equivalent of the Boom Box.

 

12:19:30 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : Applicable to the lunar image: an essay by Ivan Illich titled _Silence is a Commons_ 12:19:45 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Eric - agreed!

 

12:20:45 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : I am confident that my family would object if I asked them if we could change it so the Man in the Moon is drinking a Pepsi. Or the Rabbit is munching a Green Giant carrot.

 

12:21:22 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : I think there's an interesting tension between what we think people should/should not do and what we feel it appropriate to stop them from doing.

 

12:22:26 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Lucas - not that too many people get this distinction as it tends to get bulldozed in most conversations

 

12:22:34 From Andrew Kennedy to Everyone : the Parker solar probe is given months worth of instructions at a time. this type of protocol will only improve.

 

12:23:13 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : Is the idea in the group that people might not be bothered by destruction, but would be bothered by information-containing messages? What would people think if the Moon was modified to advertise something like “floss daily”? 

 

12:24:09 From Ted Peters to Everyone : Charles Townes at MIT, who supervised the US 1969 Moon landing, strongly urged the end of manned space explorations of the Moon. He recommended robotic missions. Lower cost due to lack of need to fund safety for human astronauts.

 

12:25:05 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Space scientists usually favor robotic missions over human missions

 

12:25:24 From Sarah Reynolds to Everyone : @Carlos  I think the idea is that there is a way in which additions can be more damaging than neglect of preservation.  Consider graffiti or those botched restoration jobs, for instance.

 

12:26:55 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : @Sarah: perhaps another instance of the precautionary principle? Action has to be justified, inaction does not?

 

12:27:44 From Dan Capper to Everyone : @ Carlos, your idea, no offense, breaks my heart.  Our moon is a marvelous emergent wonder of the solar system.  To use it as a message board, even if it is not physically harmed, strikes me personally as disrespectful.

 

12:27:53 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : The labeled release experiment remains controversial

 

12:28:14 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Nick - indeed.  An interesting debate

 

12:28:29 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : A good opportunity for philosophical inquiry

 

12:28:49 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : @Dan – oh, I agree, I’m just probing intuitions. I’d hate to see it myself, just wondering about the underlying reasons

 

12:29:07 From Erik Persson to Everyone : @Carlos That doesn't sound a lot like the PP. In the most influential formulations, the PP is formulated to that when important values are at stake we should not wait for scientific certainty before taking action to protect these values.

 

12:29:30 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : I think it's a great example of goalpost shifting, but I find it hard to credit (as a biologist) that the labelled release experiment provides good evidence for life. 

 

12:29:34 From Ted Peters to Everyone : Does the intuitive apperception of natural beauty count philosophically? Probably, yes. Scientifically? Probably not.

 

12:29:58 From Sarah Reynolds to Everyone : @Carlos Yes, but then I think the odd thing becomes what sorts of additions constant different levels of violation.  Does it make a difference what shapes or patterns strip mining occurs in?  If it adds bars or circles versus is randomized, is that better somehow than overt intentional shaping for messages?

 

12:29:59 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Sure, aesthetic appreciation has moral value

 

12:30:14 From Pauli Laine to Everyone : http://www.saunalahti.fi/~harrrab/english/mars-english.html

 

12:30:27 From kdenning@yorku.ca to Everyone : @Carlos: there would be diverse opinions globally... some just don't want the Moon touched at all because it's sacred.          

 

12:31:42 From Dan Capper to Everyone : @ Ted, you are right!  But science gives us reasons to preserve locations apart from natural magnificence.

 

12:32:20 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Prelapsarian majesty, in Soulé's terms

 

12:32:37 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : Could you... strip mine and make art at the same time? Draw something pretty with your strip mining equipment? I'm not sure I'm for this: pretty sure I'm not, but if there were some abstract design as opposed to advertising? 

Would that be better?

 

12:33:25 From Ted Peters to Everyone : Strip mine and leave a giant word, "Geiko," so that we can see if from Earth. 

 

12:33:34 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : @sheri: super interesting question.

 

12:33:50 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : I fear Sheri has given Kelly a bad idea for an art grant.

 

12:34:01 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : :) precisely!

 

12:34:19 From Andrew Kennedy to Everyone : a Ferrari still pollutes

 

12:35:10 From William Alba to Everyone : In the Moon Arts group here at CMU, some colleagues proposed selling rover time, so that people could draw images in the regolith with the vehicle tracks.

 

12:35:50 From William Alba to Everyone : Not viewable from Earth -- not as large-scale as what Sheri proposed

 

12:36:07 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : A Lunar Etch-a-Sketch!